Everyone is talking about the Enneagram, but what is it? Join us as we learn about this ancient tool for understanding our strengths and weaknesses that has turned into a must-know self-awareness system.

Host:   Rachel Blackmon Bryars @rachelblackmonbryars

Discussion Points: 

·       The importance of self-awareness (You may be dragging a wrecking ball through other people’s lives without even realizing it!!)

·       Dangers and pitfalls to avoid (Hint: don’t weaponize this info!)

·       What are the basic fears and desires of each number?

·       Which numbers are Mary Scott, Rachel, and Liz and what would they want other numbers to know about them??

Sources with Links:

·       The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery by Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile

·       Enneagram Ethics by Ian Cron

·       Overview of types by The Enneagram Institute

·       Free test by Your Enneagram Coach (email address required)

·       Ian Cron’s more in depth Enneagram Assessment  (fee)

·       Extra resource: Enneagram Overview

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Connect with Mary Scott Hunter on InstagramFacebook, and Twitter.   

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Connect with Liz Beshears on InstagramLizzy Is DizzyTwitter, and LinkedIn

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Rachel: [00:00:32] Today we’re talking about a personality typing system called the Enneagram that has actually been around a while but it’s having a big comeback in popular culture. Hi everyone, my name is Rachel Blackman Bryars. I’m joined by my co-hosts Mary Scott Hunter and Liz BeShears and if you’ve ever felt like you get in your own way, sometimes at work at home in relationships. Then this episode is for you. If you ever feel like you can’t understand why other people act the way they do. If you ever feel flummoxed by your kids behavior [00:01:02] or your husband’s behavior, but most importantly if you feel like turning this episode off because you don’t like personality tests or anything that falls into the category of what you may call quote self-help because you may think kind of stuffs for people who stare at their belly buttons and all that is a waste of my time and I don’t need it. Then I have an opinion for you. This episode is most of all for you because you are very likely the one who I think might need it the most!

And everyone around you would be so grateful [00:01:32] perhaps if you’d grow in your self-awareness. And y’all self awareness is really one of my favorite concepts. So before we dive into the Enneagram and let’s spend a minute just talking about what self-awareness is and why that’s important. According to psychology experts self-awareness is the accurate appraisal and understanding of your abilities and preferences and their implications for your behavior [00:02:02] and their impact on others. So I most of all want to focus on that last piece the impact of our behavior on others. I fully believe that you know, someone with low self awareness is like someone swinging a wrecking ball through the lives of other people in subtle and maybe not so subtle ways and maybe they don’t even realize it. Maybe you know, maybe you’re not aware how domineering you might come across to others how people might experience you as a steamroller [00:02:32] when you think you’re just a great leader. Or maybe you are a critical person or tend to be negative and other people try to escape when they see you coming but you don’t even realize that you’re not even aware that you criticize them. Everybody’s laughing. Yeah. Go ahead Liz

Liz: I feel personally attacked right now? Not by Rachel not by Rachel but just like, oh man, I do all this things!

Rachel: I’m not personally attacking either one of y’all I promise [00:03:02] you that. But listen to this quote from Stanford Professor Robert sudden, he’s the author of a book called good bad good boss bad boss. He said “good bosses are self-aware and the bad ones live in a Fool’s Paradise. The good ones know what it feels like to work for them are aware of their weaknesses and constantly make little adjustments in response to the moods and moves ofthe people around them while the bad ones are remarkably clueless.”

I thought that was great. [00:03:32] So the author Ian Cron who’s done a lot of work on the Enneagram has explained it like this: “before we come self-aware leaders and communicators, it’s almost as though we are locked in an English phone booth, you know, the little red Phone Booth with a hornet just reacting. Swatting at situations and people and emergencies and stresses and often acting in our strengths but just as often acting in our weaknesses because we just aren’t aware of them or how they affect others.”  And research really supports the crucial nature of self awareness for [00:04:02] leaders of Cornell study of 72 of the highest level Executives across 31 organizations found that the strongest predictor of success as measured by organizational results and their ability to create happy and healthy corporate cultures. The strongest predictor of success was high self-awareness.

So, you know, why would that be I think it’s when we know when we know our strengths we work from those when we know our weaknesses we can depend on others to fill those roles with really a great sense of gratitude [00:04:32] and humility and humor and I think self-awareness can sound like a pop psychology term, but I think the whole idea is rooted in spirituality and Faith formation. You know, are we letting God convict us and grow us or are we spiritually blind people, you know, prideful people who who won’t change. So I really love this quote from Flannery O’Connor the southern writer. She says “to know oneself is above all to know what one lacks. It is to measure oneself against truth [00:05:02] and not the other way around. The first product of self-knowledge is humility.” So y’all let’s get self-aware. First of all, has a personality typing system, you know, maybe the Myers-Briggs or the DISC or something else ever resonated with you and how perhaps as it tangibly helped you.

Liz: The only two other ones I’ve ever taken besides Enneagram are Myers-Briggs and Strengths Finder and both of those were in work and let me leadership development contexts [00:05:32] and I really loved both of them. The problem with all of these is that they’re almost confirming for me. They have a lot of confirmation bias. Maybe I don’t know like I’m an ENTJ on the Myers-Briggs. I’m a well spoiler alert! I’m A 3 on the Enneagram and with the Strengths Finder all all of my the five categories of that really played into the other ones like strategic learner [00:06:02] relator and empathy I think was one of them which is kind of a little bit off brand for the other ones, but it was really helpful, but it just kind of I don’t know that I was surprised by any of them either. 

Mary Scott: I have taken him over the years. I took one in the military, I’ve taken I’m looking right now at the Strengths Finder from Gallup the the Don Clifton book my husband gave it to all his employees for a holiday party [00:06:32] gift this year. And and I thought that was great and gave his employees an opportunity to look at their own strengths and their communication styles and I thought that was good and I’ve taken other ones. I took one for Leadership Alabama, but I’m trying not to laugh out loud right when you were when you were starting this because I always think I don’t care about this. I know I’m not gonna get anything out of this. I don’t don’t box me in don’t tell me what I’m like, don’t [00:07:02] try to teach me anything. So and that’s exactly the wrong attitude and I know it but every time I take them I get a little bit out of it, but I don’t know I don’t subscribe. So I’m interested to see where we go with this today. 

Liz: It’s so Mary Scott is so funny. I think we have kind of two different reactions to the same feeling of you’re like don’t put me in this box. Don’t tell me who I am or what I am and I’m almost of the flip side of that. I already know who I am. You don’t have to tell me who [00:07:32] I am. There’s so much to learn from all of these personality typing tests. 

Rachel: But I do like what you what you’re kind of getting at Mary Scott and that is that nobody really likes to be typed and then you’re like, oh, well, you’re just being so INFP. That’s what I you know, Myers-Briggs. That’s what I am or you know, oh your you’re a three Liz so you must be acting this way. And you know so Liz you said that you would read something that might really help us as we dive into this because it’s get can be framing as [00:08:02] far as not typing people. 

Liz: Absolutely. So like you said Ian Michael Cron who wrote The Road Back to You which is the probably most popular Enneagram book right now also has this resource where he talks about the ethics of the Enneagram and talks about things not to do when discussing it so I do think that’s an important thing for us to just briefly go over while we’re having this conversation about the Enneagram. Number one he says is don’t weaponize it. There’s the example he gives a stop acting like [00:08:32] such a five or stop acting like such an eight you’re steam rolling. So don’t weaponize it. Don’t excuse your own behavior on your type. Well, of course, I’m being blind intimidating or course, I’m being aggressive. I’m a so-and-so resist the temptation to type others, you’re just you’re just such a adorable little two! You know, don’t don’t put others in boxes. You don’t know that, you know, you don’t know their inner life and then on the same along those [00:09:02] same lines don’t assume that people are going to act a certain way because you know, they’ve let you know what their number or what their type is. People are made up of more than their personality. You don’t know their inner workings. So those were the four that really resonated with me. 

Rachel: well, and I’ve tried to I like to think in metaphors and something I thought about before is if you go to an art gallery and you let’s say they’ve grouped artist by type of painting so you go in one room and all the paintings on the wall look incredibly different, but then you learn [00:09:32] that so in this room everything was painted in watercolor. All those paintings were still different but the type of paint they were using is of a similar type. And so I think that’s a way to think of it. That each person is incredibly unique. You’re not looking at the same thing, but they might be made up of a similar substance and also just a little quick history lesson. It’s kind of interesting to me that the very first attempt to classify personalities came from the father of Medical Science Hippocrates some time in 400 BC when he noticed the very different ways his [00:10:02] patients reacted to illness. So he observed that, you know, some patients tended to be optimistic and others seemed pessimistic some tended to get angry and want to be take charge types and still others were quiet and unassuming and didn’t want to bother anybody. And it’s funny because back then you know, that there were certain fluids in human bodies that could affect health and behavior and so he categorized them into four temperaments. So just a little dip into history there. But let’s talk now about [00:10:32] the Enneagram because it is also sort of an ancient older form of understanding personality. But if you if you can do a real quick Google image search of the Enneagram so you can have a visual of what we’re discussing today. It’s depicted as a circle with nine types positioned around it and they’re all kind of connected in different ways and we can talk about that a little bit. But what I’d like to do is just run through and give a very brief description of each one and maybe talk about some basic fears and desires and motivations [00:11:02] for each type and a lot of this comes from a website called the Enneagram Institute. So type one is the perfectionist or the reformer and this type of person is pretty perfectionistic, self-controlled, very rational.

Usually highly principled principled. So I think Nelson Mandela, Margaret Thatcher. I think Hillary Clinton was one, Martha Stewart. They’re always trying to improve things [00:11:32] but may be very very afraid of making a mistake. Usually quite orderly try to have high standards. But if they’re not careful can slip into being overly critical. Their basic fear is of being corrupt or defective in some way or not following the rules and their basic desire is to have integrity, to be balanced and to be good. 

Liz: Oh, I’m married to a 1 really Jamie. Yes, James. My husband is a hard one. He [00:12:02] he is a perfectionist. He is somebody who has a very very strict and strong moral code and he adheres to it and if something is outside of what he believes to be right… it manifests itself in a very black or white way of looking at the world in terms of right and wrong, which is wonderful in so many ways. But sometimes we just have to step back and say Hey, you know, it’s okay that things aren’t exactly as you think they [00:12:32] should be it’s not our life. You know, that’s not our marriage. That’s not our life. We don’t have to judge them for how they live their life or have their marriage kind of thing. 

Liz: I’ve heard that ones you’re gonna they’re going to read those instructions and they are going to make sure they follow the process, you know, they’re going to get that thing in the mail or put together the Ikea piece and it’s going to be perfect is that this James tend to do that? Like he wants to follow the instructions exactly. 

Liz: Well, maybe not he’s also not a detail person which is kind of funny may be counterintuitive. But for example, when we talked in [00:13:02] one of the very first episodes about our pet peeves and I mentioned about how one of his pet peeves is the laundry not getting done like putting the laundry in from the washer into the dryer as soon as the as soon as it’s done and then taking out of the dryer as soon as it’s done. He has he gets really flustered when stuff like that doesn’t happen in the right order at the right time because that means the clothes might be a little bit wrinkled or that kind of thing. So it really more manifests itself in wanting things to be orderly and predictable for him. 

Rachel:[00:13:32] So type 2 is the helper. So twos are usually very warm-hearted sincere friendly. They want to help in any they give you the shirt off their backs their they can be people-pleasing they are well-meaning and very driven to support other people. They can fall into doing things for others just to be needed but they can, you know, really get behind people and there are stable and self-reliant. They can typically have problems with sort of maybe possessiveness [00:14:02] or with even acknowledging their own needs. So basic fear here would be of being unwanted or Unworthy of being loved. According to the Enneagram Institute the basic desire would be to feel loved so they might have unconditional love for others and just really really want to be needed. 

Mary Scott: I can think of lots of people that fit as I was reading through the definitions, any of these and I for me the value is you can have an idea of what not only people want and but what they [00:14:32] fear and so to boy you can really drive a nail and a two if you just signal to them that you don’t love them. You know, I mean that could just just and I just my goodness I’ve known people that they need to know that you love them. And that’s I have a I think one of my children is probably a two I’m thinking about him. 

Rachel: Oh, yeah, you mentioning children, you know, I’ve got five and I think probably five different primary numbers on the Enneagram probably [00:15:02] represented with my with my own kids and I think even just part of the self-awareness of a parent to realize that how we experience the world and how things that we might need might not be their primary need. So if you are realizing that one of your children, maybe their basic need is to feel loved you might interact with them a little bit differently than someone whose basic need is to get praise or you know to really achieve. 

So type three actually talking about achievement is the achiever so Liz you said you’re a three. Threes are self-assured. [00:15:32] They’re Charming. They can be ambitious energetic. They can be highly driven for advancement also diplomatic and poised maybe perhaps can be overly concerned with their image or what others think of them. 

Mary Scott: Maybe 

Rachel: Maybe I don’t know now that I know that Liz is a 3 I like I don’t want to box her in and I don’t want to say anything many of these negatives because they might not apply to her at all. But, you know at their best they can be very authentic and everything that they seem to be, you know role models who inspires others, but their basic fear can sometimes [00:16:02] be of being worthless basic desire might be to feel valuable and worthwhile. Does any of that resonate Liz and if not, tell us what you experience as a 3 and how what you would want other people to know about 3-ness. 

Liz: Well, I think I’m not the only three in this group am I?

Mary Scott: You gave it away! We gave it away. Yes. So I guess we’re both threes. I took the test and I will say this that I took the test [00:16:32] and I was talking myself out of everything and wondering am I answering this as I am or as I want to be or as people perceive me, and so. I am bad about talking myself out of answers on a test like this. And so I probably ought to take it again just to double check but yes, I took the test and it said I was a three. 

Liz: so I’ve known I was a three for a while, but in preparation for this episode, I did finally read the book and I realize I’m not just a three. [00:17:02] I think I’m a three wing four so we’ll talk about the four more in a second. But let’s let’s talk about the three right now. There is a quote by Nathaniel Hawthorne says “No man for any considerable period can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally getting bewildered as to which may be true.” So one of the aspects of threeness is kind of being a social chameleon of you can be to some extent all things for all people and one [00:17:32] of the downfalls of that is you can forget which one of those is the real you. But the thing that I struggle with is that I guess I’ve never considered that any of the competing Personae that I contain are mutually exclusive. Like I am the overachiever who never feels like she’s quite like living up to our potential and so needs to constantly be setting and achieving goals. I am the pioneer girl who loves gardening and chickens and and can see herself living on a farm [00:18:02] out in the country. One day. I am the southern belle who can be demure ,and I am the city girl who thrives in a high Pace high pressure environment. So I contain multitudes! it’s a tough one for me, but then I as I read about the three wing four that’s really typical for for somebody with that wing. It’s quote, “These people take having a rich inner life to a whole new level because 3s can be chameleons and fours value authenticity three wing fours experienced tremendous confusion and interior dissonance. [00:18:32] At the same time, they’re projecting an image to please the crowd. The four Wing is pointing at them in screaming phony! Fraud! Threes with four wings are more introspective and in touch with their shame and other feelings, they’re sensitive, artistic emotionally intense, ding ding ding and they work for carefully on Crafting the Right image.”

Rachel: Well, Liz you brought up a term that is associated with the Enneagram. That is the wing. So let me take just a quick minute to explain what the wing is. So again, if you have looked at a picture [00:19:02] of the Enneagram and you see that Circle, you’ll notice that your number of course is sitting side by side by two other numbers and the idea here is that you will be heavily influenced by one of those numbers on the other side of you probably more so than the other so Liz says it she’s a three wing four, that means her primary that she relates to the most as a 3 but she’s most influenced by the 4 rather than say the two which is the helper so it can sound a little confusing but I think once once you see that picture, you might you might catch on to that a little bit quicker. [00:19:32] 

So let’s move into the four which is Liz’s wing and they are known as the individualist or the romantics. So fours are known for being self-aware, maybe a little bit reserved. They’re emotionally honest sometimes for say that they are they just feel that their feelings are the biggest thing in their life. They’re just you know, they have all these huge feelings. They can be very creative and personal but perhaps a little bit Moody as well a lot of the artists that we admire our fours. [00:20:02] You’ll be interested in this Mary Scott, Virginia Woolf was considered a for also Edgar Allan Poe Johnny Depp Angelina Jolie. I read somewhere that there’s a bit of a draw to the macabre and the dark if you’re a for so typically they might have problems with a little bit of melancholy perhaps self-pity at times.

The basic fear here is that they have no Identity or personal significance, while the basic desire might be to find themselves and their significance and to create a very [00:20:32] unique identity. 

Mary Scott: Well, have we figured out what you are Rachel?

Rachel:  I’ll share that when we get to it, but I’ll go back to the three for a minute that I’m I think if somebody had to guess what I am they would probably guess that I’m A 3 if you were to look at the way I live my life and my past and how how I’ve always experienced the world. It looks like I’m an achiever and that is actually not my primary [00:21:02] number. So I’ll tell you what it is when we get to it, but moving into the fives these folks are called the investigators. They are usually quite insightful curious. They really have massive brains. Sometimes they really lead with their minds they’re able to concentrate and focus. They’re independent Innovative inventive, they can also become preoccupied with their thoughts, become detached. They can be high-strung and intense, you know, very cerebral folks. So Albert Einstein [00:21:32] Stephen Hawking Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg. So the basic fear here might be being useless helpless or incapable in the basic desire might be to be capable and competent. And and guys, I would I kind of Wonder because none of us I think are fives but what are perhaps ways that we can love well someone who might be an introverted cerebral tend to be isolated work a lot 5.

Mary Scott: I think to love them. You have [00:22:02] to understand what they need and I’ve always I’ve never until we got into this. I didn’t know what the I didn’t know what the Enneagram was, but I have thought a lot about communication and I do think that the largest and most effective part or the way to be effective in communication is not what comes from you, but understanding what the person or group that you are communicating with needs. And so I think that is probably [00:22:32] the greatest benefit of the Enneagram. Yes, understanding yourself, but I kind of think I don’t mean to downplay it but I sort of think that we all have a little of everything at times in our lives and I think we probably change. And so it’s a way to understand ourselves. But if you also really dig into it then maybe the greatest benefit is understand that a 5, for example the best way to love them might be to say I’m going to you know, if it’s your husband. I’m going to I’m going to let you garden for [00:23:02] a couple hours and I’m going to take the kids. I’m gonna let you sit in your room for a while listen to music because it’s obvious that’s what you need. And if you’re not that way and that’s not how you feel loved and I think that can be really hard because that that might not make sense to you. 

Rachel: I read a story about a parent who, they just thought that surprise parties and just Gathering tons of people would be the best birthday gift ever. And so every year they would throw their their son this huge surprise birthday party [00:23:32] and they’d always he would go disappear we go hide in his room and she fought it finally dawned her like he doesn’t really want this party that would be fantastic to me. He he actually doesn’t find this enjoyable at all. 

So moving into the sixes. The sixes are called the Loyalists. They are committed kind of security security-oriented types. So and I think Ian Cron described it this way, that they might look out on the horizon and see all of the possible problems that might be coming their way. They see [00:24:02] the tornado that is coming next month. They see the hurricane that is going to hit in six months. They just it kind of disaster thinkers and they really want to take care and protect the people that are in their span of care. They sometimes can be can become defensive maybe anxious. Running on stress while also complaining about it, sometimes. They are usually very reliable, responsible, trustworthy, people. They can have problems with Self Doubt and suspicion but at their best they are really able to work [00:24:32] with any of the types and are just very stable. So a couple famous loyalists are Rush Limbaugh, Mark Twain, Jennifer Aniston, Tom Hanks,  Ellen. DeGeneres is considered a loyalist. The basic fear might be being without support and guidance and the basic desire is to have security and support, so sort of your worst-case scenario thinkers.

Liz: I wonder how Ellen Degeneres and Rush Limbaugh. Would you feel about being the same type? 

Rachel: Let’s get them in a room together [00:25:02] and see if they can relate well 

Liz: To me this type sounds like the kind of person I would love to have a team of hmm. Like if I’m a if I’m a 3, I think I feel like I would love to have a team of six has who I can depend on and who are who are competent, but maybe need structure and direction. 

Rachel: Yeah feels like if you’re a Visionary three you all you must really need a six to slow you down and say hold up. Like let’s look at the budget, your eyes [00:25:32] are really big. Can we afford that? 

So the sevens are considered the enthusiasts they are extroverted and fun and spontaneous and they’re always looking for the next great fun experience. They’re very playful high-spirited very talented, but they can be considered scattered and perhaps a little bit undisciplined. They typically are always seeking new and exciting experiences. They might have a little bit of problems with impatience and impulsiveness. But at their best they [00:26:02] just make everybody around them super happy. And my dad is definitely a seven, and growing up with him was just it’s if you have a seven parent you probably had a magical childhood. There were fun vacations to be had there were, you know, lots of joining this league and trying out for that.

And I’m so grateful for his seven-ness in our family and even now as a grandad, he’s always dreaming up these fun things for the family to do. Some famous sevens Miley Cyrus [00:26:32] Robert Downey jr., Katy Perry, Amelia Earhart was considered a seven, George Clooney. This was kind of interesting a basic fear for them is of being deprived or in pain. Part of the reason that they can get distracted and always looking for the next fun thing is that they’re a little bit of afraid of what it wouldn’t  Yeah. It’s avoidance like they’re afraid of falling into pain or not being able to have fun 

Liz: FOMO! 

Rachel: Oh, yeah, YOLO and then the basic desire there could be to be satisfied and content and to have their [00:27:02] needs and wants fulfilled. 

Mary Scott: I think I have a person in my life who I’m very close to who is probably a seven and I have found myself in patient at times with her because I want her to be more responsible. I want her to be more direct. I want her to take more of a straight line and you know, you know walk the line from here to there and just get there but that’s not how she’s wired and [00:27:32] it’s not. And so I think whatever type I am that might that might help you figure out what type of You Are by what bugs you or bothers you or you know, you glom onto around about others. You know what I mean? I’m wondering if that might be a way to figure out who you are just by finding out who others are yeah for sure. I mean, in fact since we’re on the 7s and this is applies to the next one too, we still haven’t gotten to my number, but I am so drawn [00:28:02] to the sevens. The outgoing the happy if you can make me laugh you are gold in my life and I think that’s because I tend to be sort of deep and like, you know, maybe more melancholy and so I just love people who can make me laugh and get out of myself and stop working and go have fun.

But the challenge there is that sevens don’t necessarily like to go very deep. So I’ve also I’ve tried to be aware. 

Mary Scott: That’s what I mean! It’s not the fun part, everybody loves the laughing everybody [00:28:32] loves the but the yeah, but the there’s more to it than this that that feeling that you just want to go a little bit deeper than I don’t know and have a bit more of a realness to things. You know, that isn’t that sometimes may be lacking with a 7. 

Rachel: Yeah and you know thinking back into some of these writers have written about it trying to think about where they’re coming from and their basic fears, you know, if you if you think about it, if they’re very afraid of pain and very afraid of unhappiness. It seems sometimes that [00:29:02] they’re almost incapable of going to that place because it’s getting at their root fear. So I tried I’ve tried to be kind of aware of that but they just might not be the best processing partner, you know, like when you’re ready to have fun like hang out with your 7, but if you’re going through something hard you can’t really take too much offense if that’s not necessarily the person who wants to be your sounding board because you are hitting at their fear. 

Liz: Yeah. 

Rachel: So on to the eighth the eights are considered the Challenger. So the [00:29:32] Challenger is self-confident, very assertive. I guess a good motto might be the bull in the china shop. Just you see them come, you can feel them coming before they arrive. They are those huge personalities people can kind of think that they’re very domineering sometimes. I think they can just be they can be egocentric and eights, I’ve read feel that they need to control their environment. And sometimes that means they need to control people. [00:30:02] They can be very confrontational, intimidating. But at their best, you know, they can if they are self mastered and self-aware they’re some of our best leaders they can be heroic inspiring. 

Mary Scott: Um thank you because this is my wing but it’s barely a wing. It’s like half of me. When I took the test it was like my I’m a 3-bit. I’m half of an eight to I’m almost it’s not even I don’t I guess that’s a wing but it’s a I’m a three wing ate 

Rachel: well, and it could be the wing [00:30:32] is whatever’s on the direct other side of your number. So I think what you are getting out of your test, Mary Scott is that you could be a dominant 3 with some Wing or you could be a dominant 8 with some Wing. Okay? 

Mary Scott: Yes, and I’m sorry. I’m not, I don’t know the Enneagram. well enough to articulate that just yet. 

Rachel: I think some of the best leaders in the world are eights with a wing 7. Those are those charismatic people who know how to you know have fun but they are goal-driven they [00:31:02] know how to get down to business. Some of my favorite people in the world are 8w7 so that very possibly I think could be you Mary Scott. Winston Churchill was an eight ,Fidel Castro, Martin Luther King jr., Rosie O’Donnell our president is almost certainly an eight. 

Mary Scott: I can see that about him. I definitely can but I, also but what bothered me when I read about it is if it’s not going the way I want if I don’t like the way it’s going as an 8 if I’m not happy if I’m not in control of everything [00:31:32] burn it down. Is what they do when they’re at their worst. When they’re at their best, of course, they don’t but I was like wow, okay, 

Liz: You know Mary Scott. I really I can commiserate with you on this because reading through the eighth chapter and about eights. There are a lot of things I identify with there too. I like to tell people that I’m not passive-aggressive. I’m just aggressive. If I’m unhappy with something you’re going to know about it. And I think that is a really [00:32:02] 8 trait. but I love your your burn it down comment too.

Mary Scott: It’s sort of funny but it you do have those dark moments you like it’s we’ll just forget it. Just you know, it’s got to go away now because it’s not the way it’s supposed to be and you know, that is not that is not productive nor is it good? 

Rachel: One of my best friend’s is a strong 8, and she’s very self aware in these different numbers. They break it up into things that emotions that she might be [00:32:32] closest to so a 7 their emotion, they’re closest to might be fear. But an eight nine and one the emotion they’re closest to his anger and she’ll just say that she’s like I am very close to my anger. That is the quickest emotion that I go to and she knows it and so she’s like trained herself with certain habits, like if someone says something she’s you know, and her challenger way wants to just shoot them out of the water. She has trained herself to take just a minute and like close her mouth, and [00:33:02] like she’s probably counting to 10. But I think being self-aware makes her such a wonderful person to be around because it’s like her giftedness is coming out. She knows her first emotion is anger. So she’s working on controlling it and I think that’s all any of us can ask is just to to know what our weaknesses and at least be trying to work on the strength part, and you know get minimizes the weakness part. 

Mary Scott: So I am feeling so like I want to jump off right now and [00:33:32] just turn this off because 

Liz: Do you feel personally attacked Mary Scott?

Mary Scott: but like I don’t know like I’m outside without my clothes on or something. 

Rachel:This is hard and like, you know, like the one I’m going to share. I feel the same way. I don’t really even want to share it. It’s the next one. We’re going to talk about because then people assume you’re certain way and so I think all of us feel that way and again, this is just a tool to sort of be helpful, but let’s don’t box each [00:34:02] other in, and don’t even box yourself in like, if you don’t really relate fully it could be that this is not the system that most helps you and I think that anybody who’s written about it would say that like, this is supposed to be helpful not hurtful. 

Mary Scott: So you’re a you’re a nine? You’re the easygoing self-effasive type? Receptive, reassuring, agreeable, and complacent?

Rachel: So the nine Of The Peacemaker. Yeah. The nine is The Peacemaker. So usually, you know, they’re [00:34:32] optimistic and supportive but can be way too willing to go along with others to keep the peace and and the thing. Yeah, so they pretty much want to get things to go smoothly and without conflict. I think if you I think when people read about the nine, maybe they the thing that really grabs us and were like, yep, that’s me is just the way that conflict can make you feel. And oh y’all I have come so far, but if you had known me 10 years ago, the slightest conflict would would make me like want to lay on the couch [00:35:02] in a curled up ball as long as possible. I just wanted to like retreat, so that that’s been something I’ve grown in a lot. I mean my my career trajectory where I’m at right now, I’m a you know, an opinion writer I go on the radio I talk about issues and you would probably, if you read my writing you would be like, oh she’s not afraid of conflict at all. Like she’s got some pretty strong opinions. Or you know, she’s speaking on the radio or she’s giving talks that are controversial at times. But I think [00:35:32] what I’ve kind of come to is that I’m fine engaging conflict as long as it’s for a purpose. As long as it’s to defend somebody, or if Justice is at stake, or there’s like a really good ideal that I’m in pursuit of but just to like fight over where we’re going to go to dinner? Forget about it. I would far rather go eat something I don’t like it all. Yeah or like like we laugh because in our household Pepper gets to choose basically what we watch because [00:36:02] I just don’t care that much. Like if we’re going to watch a movie or something like that he’s in charge of the remote control. I don’t care but it’s funny because I’m in charge of the music because that’s what I care about more than anything. And so I’m like don’t you dare put on guns and roses and like all that old school country that you like you don’t even touch that Alexa. Like, I am in charge so, you know, I guess I’m not afraid of conflict when it matters, 

Liz: Do you think that could be considered [00:36:32] like a One Wing for you? Yeah, some of that justice-seeking. 

Rachel: Yep. So I would say I’m pretty strongly a nine Wing one. Really can be hard on myself, really have high ideals, and at the same time really want Harmony that’s that 9. So the basic fear of a 9 is of loss and separation. And I think that’s why sometimes we can be afraid of conflict as it’s like, whoa, am I about to lose your friendship or your respect or you know, what’s going on in our relationship right now, [00:37:02] I’ll do anything to keep the connection or or make sure that you’re not mad at me. You can be driven by that basic fear. And the basic desire which I was like, oh so true, is to have inner peace. Inner stability and peace of mind.

 when I was learning about the Enneagram I realized that I was rereading probably for the third or fourth time a book. I’ve even got it on my nightstand right now “Searching for and Maintaining Inner Peace.” 

Mary Scott: That is [00:37:32] that is not a surprise really. It sort of was at the beginning because if you just read the top line, but if you really go down deep and understand what that is, or I can see that Rachel can see that in you. And it’s perfectly you.

Rachel: Well, what do y’all what are some tips that you would say? Like, if you could say I speak for the threes and here’s what we would want you all to know about us. Do y’all have anything that you could say? 

Mary Scott: I do want to say something about the nines because I had my husband take it [00:38:02] and he’s a nine. And yes, and he’s a nine and I realized I just had this I don’t know like my pit of my stomach went down because I realized that when I am upset with him when I’m mad with him, I do things that signal that I reject him. Like put the pillow in the middle of the bed, you know or but I I just and I boy, that’s not helpful boy. Did I just realized [00:38:32] probably that really really hurts him. You know, I if you want to boil, you can really, I think Liz, you said that Enneagram don’t use it as a weapon because if you do understand it, you could really go to somebody’s deepest fear and that fear of the nine of being rejected. Oh boy, you could really you could you can really drive a wedge. Drive a drive just a nail into the heart of a somebody if you know what their fear is, and [00:39:02] that’s that 9’s fear of separation and loss. Hmm. 

Rachel: It’s really kind of an interesting thing because the 9 and maybe some of these introverted types can long for connection can long for friends can long for those deep satisfying relationships at the same time as they withdraw out of fear, out of conflict, out of fear of everything that real relationships actually bring. I know in my relationship with Pepper, my husband, we’ve grown so much in and by the way, I think he is a strong one with a wing 9. [00:39:32] So we’re like, we’re pretty much the same person but a little bit opposite. So, he’s heavily driven by ideals. So we’ve grown a lot in you stepping into conflict to make peace rather than of peacekeeping which is actually just avoiding conflict. 

Mary Scott: So I want to say if you’re a Type 3 and you are a professional woman who’s maybe floated in and out of the career field because you’ve had kids or because you’ve [00:40:02] just had to because the circumstances, you know, husband has maybe made some moves in his career and you’ve you’ve been in your career field, but had to kind of float in and out. I think that if you’re a three it’s easy for circumstances to make you feel invalidated worthless. Because the you know that your world kind of values you as a as a hard-driving professional and yet your circumstances have had to [00:40:32] you’ve had to adjust you’ve had to account for the people that you love in your life. You’ve had to be, malleable and and I think that can really drive… I know for me that’s the circumstance. My career hasn’t been a straight line. It couldn’t be because of our our moves, our children, our you know all the things that have happened it just and so that boy. Oh boy can those circumstances really work on you and work on your core fears and your insecurities. [00:41:03] 

Liz: You’re just speaking so much truth. Mary Scott. What he says in the book is threes need to hear that they are loved for who they are. They need to know they need to say, you know, they need somebody to tell them they need to know deep within themselves that you are loved just for who you are because if you wrap your self you wrap your identity and your self-worth up in what you can accomplish, and the things on paper. I make this x x amount of money every year, or I have these accolades [00:41:33] or I have this title. Those things are so fleeting and they’re I mean at the end of the day, they’re really external things. You need to find the value within yourself and you need sometimes you just need somebody to tell you. Hey you’re loved for exactly who you are.

Rachel: and I don’t want to say one more thing real quick just about the eights. That something that that nines would want eights in particular to know is that we may seem very accommodating but [00:42:03] we are not weak and if you if you are not a self-aware 8, you have the very high risk of stepping all over people in your life who you really need, you know learn I’m speaking for all the nines out there learn to value and you know nines don’t necessarily want credit. They just want to be appreciated, and they will work really really hard for you if you if you take care of them.Aand so go nines [00:42:33] you are not weak you are just driven to support and keep the peace and that is actually a really beautiful thing. 

So that wraps up our discussion of the Enneagram and there’s y’all so much more to be said about it. This was top of the Waves we didn’t do it probably Justice whatsoever. So I we highly encourage you to dive into it a little bit more yourself. We’ll put in a link to the test that we three took there’s more professional tests out there that probably cost something and whether it’s the Enneagram or whether it’s any [00:43:03] spiritual book just work a little bit on self-awareness and try to grow spiritually. I think it’ll make a big difference in your life. So thanks so much again, please find us on Facebook Twitter Instagram. We are @BelleCurvePod. Our website is bellecurvepodcast.com we thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next time.